Someone sold you the lie that Ukraine is near 100% united, and it penetrates your whole narrative.
Ukraine was always very different in its eastern and western parts. Over the past 30 years the country has been moving toward values of the western Ukraine, largely due heavy anti-Russian bias in education. So, if you only talk to people under 30 present on social media sites, who chose to stay in Ukraine, I can see how one can come away with the impression that there's a unanimous opposition to Russia. Tons of people left even before the war. Many are in Russia, but a lot are also in Europe.
But there are still tons of people in eastern Ukraine over the age of 30-40 who are hoping that Russia takes over, tons of people in the Donbass that volunteered to fight since 2014, etc.
During the Euromaidan, the young people in Kiev were overwhelmingly against Yanukovich, but it doesn't make what happened one bit democratic. Whether U.S. helped that particular violent overthrowing of the government is really not that relevant.
Dismissing that NATO is a threat to Russia is also quite a claim. When USA renamed the Department of War to DoD, it did not suddenly became a peace-keeping organization. Just because Russia's nukes are enough of a deterrent today, doesn't mean they will be tomorrow. Russia has a recent painful history of Europeans invading by land. Dismissing it just hurts your own credibility.
I could go on. I think Tucker's take is a lot closer to a well-reasoned position that this post.
Someone sold you the lie that we aren't. My family comes from Donetsk obl., I have many friends and relatives throughout eastern parts of Ukraine, and almost everyone is against russia, especially after Feb 24s. Do you know that almost all Azov members are from eastern parts of the country(especially Mariupol)? How's your propaganda holding?
Tons of people left..and that makes them pro-russia?Lol.
True russian sympathizers/collaborators, that "wait for russia" are a minority, and always was(check Ukrainian independence referendum, 1991 for numbers). And they are definitely not a "ton" in a 44+mln country. Even separatist forces top at 20-30k, but we supposedly had 8mln "oppressed" ethnic russians?
Yeah, we were always too friendly toward russians, I've had many "friends" there, before the invasion in 2014, and that cost us dearly.
>Russia has a recent painful history of Europeans invading by land.
You mean Russia has a recent painful history of invading almost every neighboring country?
I could go on, how your every argument is nonsense, fed by russian propaganda.
My family is from Donbass as well, and my relatives are pretty equally split into pro-/anti-Russian camps. Including those that who have fled to Europe due to the war/ATO/whatever you want to call it in Donbass.
Russia is not a peaceful country, it's a regional empire. So is the USA, just a global one. Both will readily sacrifice their satellites for greater imperial goals. It's pretty sad, but it's the reality. Donbass is probably fucked for decades now. People in Ukraine are now deluding themselves into thinking that the U.S. will be as eager to rebuild what's being destroyed as it is selling/lending Ukraine its weapons. And Russia, were it to prevail, won't have enough resources to do anything quickly either.
I know emotions run high in pro-Western Ukrainians right now, but giving in to emotions precludes any rational actions. At this point it looks like both Russia and United States will happily see years of war that levels 100% of Donbass, just to avoid looking weak themselves. The longer Ukrainians are buying into one-sided arguments the longer it will take them to realize that any shitty peace is better than a complete collapse of the infrastructure that nobody's coming to rebuild.
My condolences for them, truly. It's all around horrible situation that lasted 8 years, instead of simply living peacefully and trying to make life better.
But I can't fathom how anyone could still be pro-russia after all they did, especially now.
Yes, but US never dropped bombs on a theater full of (russian-speaking) Ukrainians, and then lied that they didn't.
So what you suggest, surrender and receive all the glory nkvd-days again? Seen Bucha?
Issues like this is always complex, but the answer is simple. Any concessions to russian will bring even more suffering(and history proves that(many of the same Donetsk family memers died in Holodomor). So we must use any means necessary to repell it fully.
I can. Look at Moldova: occupied by the Russian empire and then by the Soviet state; thousands deported to Siberia, thousands killed, hundreds of thousands of victims of Russification; on top of that, thousands of victims of a Soviet famine. To this day quite a few of them cling to Soviet nostalgia, believe Moldova needs to be a part of Russia's world, follow Russian news and Russian TV stations and - this is the cherry on top - are convinced that they're "Moldovan" i.e. not Romanian, because Romanians are - wait for it - "fascists" and "different". The Russian-Soviet State taught them well. Hell, it even invented a language for them: "Moldovan", a Russified version of Romanian, based on the Cyrillic alphabet.
Like I said, one cannot expect to make rational decisions high on emotions. I have no clue how the war is gonna evolve, but I think the whole region has been destabilized for decades. Ukraine was a poor country prior to this war, and will be even poorer from now on. I'm trying to get as many of my relatives out of Ukraine as possible. The latter is not possible without at least a cease-fire and a break from 24hr propaganda.
Napoleon, Austria Hungary, The Turks, Germany in WW1, Hitler in WW2, etc. .... the Russians have a long history of being invaded from the West. I woukd cut them a considerable length of slack gor being paranoid.
Ah, yes, those poor Russians, forever suffering under Western threat. No wonder they had to subjugate, deport, kill and denationalize those Eastern Europeans!
Ukraine is no modern democracy that Russian citizens want for themselves. It is correctly perceived in Russia as a cesspit of corruption that makes Russian oligarchs look like angels of mercy. Ukranians themselves are so fed up of it that they want to join the EU because they have no hope on their own politicians.
What sort of civilised country outlaws an entire language? A country in which minorities Russians, Hungarians, etc are treated as second class citizens. Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk had legitimate referenda on independence and deserve the right to be independent of their Ukronationalist tormentors.
"If you ask the Ukranians" is a recurrant echo throughout this article. Maybe you should think a bit more about "If you ask the Russian speakers in Donbass" ... and "if you ask those who celebrate Stepan Bandera and other pro-Nazi untranationalists" ... just saying.
Dude, you're all over the replies cursing at anyone with a different oponion. We get it, not all Russian speaking Ukrainians from east Ukraine are russophiles. But just because you know a lot of russophobes, it doesn't make your anecdotal experience any more valid than the other Ukrainians who also commented.
All one needs to know about this war is to see the "people" in DC who support it. The only people worse than Zelensky and his henchmen are the "people" like Pelosi, Cornyn, Linda Graham, Turtlehead, et al. I didn't think you could be so wrong.
Wow! I’m Ukrainian and that’s such an incredibly one-sided and disgusting work of fiction you just wrote. Unsubscribed and unfollowed you on twitter. I’ll try to come back here later with a more thorough rebuttal when I have the time.
While I share your sentiment on this particular piece, I'd urge you not to unsub/unfollow people at the first hint of disagreement. I do encourage you to come back with a thorough reply instead.
Your take, in my opinion, is very one sided and frankly pretty much sums up the Western take with a minor concession or two (which you also walk back). I do have some knowledge on this matter - I was born in Soviet Ukraine, I still hold a Ukrainian citizenship (even though I lived out of Ukraine since the 90s) and still have some family left in Ukraine and visited Ukraine once every few years before C19 hit. I speak Russian natively and understand Ukrainian, and occasionally watch both Russian and Ukrainian news, videos and Telegram channels. Also living in the West for 25+ years I am ver familiar with the Western and Russian narratives.
You general idea is that Ukraine and Ukrainians are united in they fight against the evil Putin horde while on the way to become a Western style democracy. This is simply not true. This conflict, in addition to a fight between Russia and NATO, is also an internal civil war that was ongoing since 2014, not just in Donbass (where a lot of Ukrainian were fighting), but also in all of Ukraine. The Ukrainian nationalist government has been purging Ukraine from anything Russian for 8 years. Russian channels have been banned, teaching in Russian in schools was banned, streets named after Soviet themes were renamed after Ukrainian nationalists (some of them quite vile), people sympathetic to Russia were taken by the SBU and either disappeared or were "re-educated", the Ukrainian military attacked civilians on multiple occasions in Donetsk and Lugansk. So no, Ukraine was not on the path of switching from Mordor to a beautiful functioning democracy. It was on the path of switching from a neutral, maybe somewhat pro Russian, Mordor to a much worse but pro Western Mordor, and the West was willing to ignore the Mordor part, as long as they stay pro Western.
Please try to hear people from the other side. Maybe talk to someone from DNR or LNR. Seriously - you are smart and you can do better. Intellectual honesty, right?
Lmao, what a typical vatnik bullshit. Lives abroad, but tells fairy tales of "evil nazis that oppress poor russians". Almost everything you wrote is lies or misrepresentation of facts.
And yes, my family comes from Donetsk oblast, and my friends who fled their homes in Luhansk and other cities would call you by "unevil, quiet words".
From what I said, what exactly is the "vatnik bullshit"? You want to tell me people did not end up in trouble with SBU for wrong-think? Or that teaching in Russian was not banned by Ukrainian law? Or the fact that the Ukrainians were shelling civilians which was documented by OSCE is simply false? If you believe this is BS I have a bridge over Severskiy Donets to sell you.
We never had anything close to "nationalist government"
>what exactly is the "vatnik bullshit"?
Everything?
>for wrong-think
Collaboration with invading country is not "wrong-think"
> Or that teaching in Russian was not banned by Ukrainian law?
LMAO, there are literally FOUR russian-speaking schools in LVIV right now in 2022
>that the Ukrainians were shelling civilians which was documented by OSCE
Please link to that documents. It would be an interesting read to all here. I personally know how russians took position among civilian buildings and shot from there countless times. Interesting, what could've happen next.
Also interesting why Ukrainian army didn't shell any places under their control, with supposedly the same "oppressed" russian-speakers that was 1 km from other "oppressed" russian-speakers. Strange, isn't it?
All your paper-castles of lies are blown apart with a little wind of truth.
And from a native russian-speaking Ukrainian, a message — пошёл нахуй, рашист.
"Nationalist" is not "nazi". It means "Uber patriotic". Check the dictionary.
Free speech is not "collaboration with invading country". It is free speech. In normal countries saying positive things about your enemy or reading a Telegram channel is still allowed and you don't end up anywhere for a little motivation talk or tied to a lamp post.
Finally - cursing when you don't like someone's thoughts, especially with "mat" just reflects on you, really. Enjoy your completely democratic and totally free and happy country, buddy. Oh and С днем Победы!
Here is an infographic of last year's report (no report this years since they withdrew). You can see ceasefire violations on both sides and civilian casualties.
> Ewww, you are a commie too.
How exactly celebrating the fact that the allies won in WW2 make me a commie? Would you prefer that Hitler would have won?
Anyway - this Gish Gallop is getting tiresome. I have no idea if Hungary has Ukrainian schools (although I am pretty sure they are not banning them) but we are really getting off topic. Enjoy your day, and I truly hope the war ends soon.
“I just don’t buy that “NATO is a security threat to Russia” as a serious argument”
Tell me what you think the US response would be to Mexico joining a Chinese led “Pacific Nato “ and China setting up bases in Mexico
Every power has their Red Lines. With the US its pretty much anyplace in the Western Hemisphere. With China it was/is Hong Kong and Taiwan, and with Russia it is its Western borders, especially Ukraine. We would do well to respect these Red Lines even if we do not agree.
After the Cuban Missile Crisis the Soviets pulled their missiles out of Cuba and we did the same in Turkey (reluctantly).
Avoiding war is always a priority, especially between two nuclear powers.
You fail to mention Ukraine not following the Minsk Agreement and Ukraines shelling of the Donbas into civilian areas for 8 years killing many
Crimea has always been considered part of Russia. The Soviets in 1954 decided for some reason to add it to the Soviet Ukraine sphere of influence. Its almost entirely Russian speaking and identifies as Russian and the voted overwhelmingly to leave Ukraine (Ukraine banned Russian language )
While numerically the Nazis are small in number, they are over represented at the level of the security forces leadership. When Hitler took over German the Nazis were a minority politically. Hitler lost the election
The Nationalists and Nazis are also targeting Russian language and ethnic Russians for discrimination.Lawmakers in 2019 passed legislation ordering middle schools that taught in Russian and other minority languages to make the switch to Ukrainian and mandating Ukrainian versions of online stores.
It requires shops, restaurants and the service industry to engage customers in Ukrainian unless clients specifically ask to switch.
Anyone caught violating the new legislation twice within one year could be fined 200 euros ($235), almost half of the average salary in the country.
Imagine fining a Mexican or Chinese shop owner in a Hispanic or Chinese neighborhood for not using English unless his customers specifically request it
A country that was subject to a coup to throw out a Democratically elected President is a phony Democracy. Ukraine went from being the wealthiest among the FSU after the breakup to the poorest. The impoverishment of Ukraine accelerated following the first Color Revolution in 2004 and declined rapidly after the Maidan Coup
As for the biolabs, the labs which Russia has control of were decontaminated in advance of their control. They have released documents that have been ignored by MSM. Its too early to write this off.
Less than one year after President Donald Trump informally announced that the United States would withdraw from the 1987 Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (INF) Treaty, the State Department announced on Aug. 2 2019 that the move was officially complete. I’d call that a provocation
Especially when you are getting ready to deploy this in Europe
That horrible language discrimination you describe are approximately the same as Quebec’s French language support laws in Canada. Not civil war material.
Indeed (regardless of what really happened in that firey building). But if the claim of language discrimination is based not on the language discrimination but one particular protest/riot related to it, well then it's rather a misnomer.
Ignoring the lie about Odesa, they always forget to mention there are four russian-speaking schools in Lviv(!) right now, for example. So much discrimination. How many there are Ukrainian schools in whole of Russia? Yeah, none.
Of course, Canada has gone full Fascist now but aside from trampling on old ladies at least you are not bombing the English speaking population who want o part of your Fascism, at least not yet (just seizing their bank accounts)
Yeah, because all the separatists are doing is "wanting", not actually working with russian equipment and personnel to actually wage local war over the last eight years.
I asked my friend, who is originally from Donetsk, how his family was doing back there. He said it was the same as it has been since 2014-2015. Non-stop aggression by the central Ukranian government and the battalions.
You considered all arguments that supported your bias. You shoot down all others as Putin’s narrative. But Ocam’s razor points to Putin’s narrative as possibly the closest to the truth but you won’t even explore it. Obviously you are blinded by generational trauma. I’ll be back when you tackle another subject that is not so close to your heart that blinds your judgement.
Not to justify clear Russian war crimes. I think the left doesn't acknowledge how reasonable Russian initial demands were. The eastern provinces and Crimea are filled with people that don't want to be ruled by the west and were pushed.
I don't think there's any solution other than a Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia style breakup.
All the war crimes in the world don't cover up the solution.
The so called little green men were just propaganda. In fact it was Russian speakers from the Ukranian army who defected to LDPR forces, along with their heavy equipment. They routed the Ukie conscripts abd forced Kiev to the negotiating table in Minsk.
I am sorry to say, but I think this post is wrong is many ways.
A couple of points here.
An underlying theme here is that Ukraine is one united country, all working together opposing those evil no-good Russkies. gummibear737 says "I talked to this Ukrainian, I talked to that Ukrainian, etc." I guess these Ukrainians were western-minded (ethnic ?) Ukrainians. This is like asking a white supremacist red-neck "what do you think of the Mexicans?" In fact, Ukraine is a deeply split country. There is a territorial entity called Ukraine, but there is a spectrum of people, the two ends of which don't think they live in the same country. Take the map of Ukraine and draw a line from northwest to southeast. Northwest is ethnic Ukrainian; as you go towards the southwest Ukraine becomes more and more Russian. When you get to southwest (Crimea, Donbass) the people are Russian - they speak Russian and they live in Russian cultural world.
If you asked people in Crimea "what do you think of yourselves? how do you self-identify?" they would say "we are Russian". Not Ukrainian. Not Russian-speaking Ukrainians. Just Russian. If you asked the same in Lvov, they would say "of course Ukrainian". If you asked the people in the middle, they would say "Russian-speaking Ukrainians". Do you see the differences?
South and southeast of Ukraine has never been ethnically Ukrainian. Never ever. I remember reading (a few years ago) an article by a young Ukrainian lady from Lvov who had decided to take a trip to Crimea - first trip in her life (Ukraine is a big country). She was shocked. She was Ukrainian-speaking (nationalist you could say). She was shocked that Crimea was full of these Russkies. hahaha. Her attitude was like "how dear they???? don't they know this is Ukraine???" For her, the people of Crimea were like a bunch of foreigners.
wrt "Ukrainian nationalists (neo-Nazis) are just a tiny minority". Let me just provide this one data point. There is this guy by the name Roman Shukhevych. He was a biggest racist mass killing sociopath in Europe until Hitler came along. Go ahead google him. There is a wikipedia page on him - read it (this page goes easy on him). For extra coverage, check out this Jewish perspective
Now here comes my point. Roman Shukhevych is a national hero of Ukraine. The majority of Ukrainian parliament voted to name him a hero; the president of Ukraine signed the decree declaring him a hero. So don't come telling "Ukrainian nationalists (neo-Nazis) are just a tiny minority"; minority my ass. For Ukraine to declare Roman Shukhevych a hero is like for Germany to declare Adolf Hitler a national hero. Think about that.
You poor fellow, you're still using out-of-date Russian propaganda software. There are so many issues wrong with this ridiculous comment of yours that I don't even know where to begin.
For an example, you mention Crimea and its Russian identity. Crimea used to be Tatar land but in the 19th century Moscow began an intensive Russian colonization program. This was highly accelerated by two Soviet-caused famines which struck the Tartars during the Soviet times (1921 and the Holodomor). Then at the end of WW2 the Soviet Union DEPORTED TATARS, GREEKS, BULGARIANS and many-many others still living in the Crimea and further colonized the lands with RUSSIANS. This was the typical Moscow modus operandi: kill, deport, beat into submission and Russification and then claim that the lands were always Russian to begin with.
As a final note, do you really want to play the "scum of the Earth" game, comrade KK? Really? JOSEF STALIN is the hero of the Russian Federation and his cult has been gaining followers in the the past few decades under the glorious leadership of the KGB asset Putin.
I'm Ukrainian, part of family is from Donbas, relatives are all over East and South and friends are still there. Yeah, all of your post is russian propaganda talk.
And Gummi is 100% on point.
>one united country
We are, how's that russian invasion going? Millions greeting them with flowers? LMAO
>If you asked people in Crimea
Wow, ALL of Crimeans would tell that? Haha, no.
And no shit, russia imported millions of their own people there. Even with this, why more then a half Crimeans voted for Ukrainian independence, mhm? Why 85% of Donbas voted for it?
Cry and lie, only thing you can do.
>South and southeast of Ukraine has never been ethnically Ukrainian
Huge collection of ethnicity maps from as early as 19 century prove you are lying.
>Ukrainian-speaking (nationalist you could say)
Wow, what a scumbag.
>He was a biggest racist mass killing sociopath in Europe until Hitler came along.
LMAO, lies with each breathe.
>For Ukraine to declare Roman Shukhevych a hero is like for Germany to declare Adolf Hitler a national hero. Think about that.
Have you thought once that Ukrainians know better of their own history than russians or their like-minded buffoons?
Vlad M. and Corwin - you are obviously supporters of Ukraine(ian nationalist project). Your response while full of emotional name-calling, does not actually refute any of the facts I provided. I don't live in Russia and I am not Russian. But I know a Nazi when I see a Nazi.
For example, while Josef Stalin is a hero to some Russians, he is not and has never been declared an official hero of Russia. Roman Shukhevych is an official hero of Ukraine. There is a difference. When a person is declared an official hero, it says something about that government and the people - like they respect and honor that hero, like they share his(her) values. You say Roman Shukhevych is a patriot of Ukraine - sure, just like Hitler was a patriot of Germany.
You think you refuted my points, but you never did. I never said that Crimea is not multi-ethnic, or has no multi-ethnic history. Sure it does. Lots of people have lived in Crimea over the centuries. What I said and what you seem to have missed is that Crimea has never been ethnically Ukrainian.
> We are, how's that russian invasion going? Millions greeting them with flowers? LMAO
I am not sure why you are feeling so smug about the Russian invasion (supposed lack of Russian progress). As we speak, the Ukrainian grouping in Donbass is being ground down.
It is slow going (Russians are obviously trying to minimize their losses), but it is steady and unstoppable. Russian troops have plenty of fuel and ammunition; their troops have good mobility. They rotate troops in and out - troops spend couple of weeks on the front lines, then get rotated out to rest and refit, while other troops take their place, etc. This is a sustainable model of running a military campaign. Compare this to the condition of Ukrainian troops in Donbass - they have very little mobility (they hunker down in their defensive positions they have prepared over the last 8 years - this gives them short-term security, but guarantees their intermediate-term destruction); they are running low on ammunition (I have seen Ukrainian commanders complain that Russian troops seem to have endless artillery power - every 300 shells Russians fire, Ukrainians fire 3 shells back. Ukrainians are unable to rest their troops - after a couple of weeks of combat, a unit starts to lose its effectiveness and is much easier to destroy.
If Ukrainians were smart, they would pull back their troops to the Diepr line. Best chance they have is fortify themselves in big cities and make Russian engage in urban fighting. Worst thing is for Ukrainians to fight Russians in the fields and hills on the open country. Which is what they are doing right now.
as to "Millions greeting them with flowers?" - I have seen reports, complaining by Ukrainian commanders that it is more difficult for them to fight Russians, since the local population in Donbass does not really support them. And even more than that, that many locals are actively cooperating with Russian forces. Like - a Ukrainian unit sets up a camouflaged position, and 30 minutes later Russians start raining artillery on them because some local has reported their position to Russians on a Telegram channel. Then the Ukrainian unit quickly changes position, and 30 minutes later Russian shells again start landing on them, because another local has reported they movements and new location to Russians on Telegram.
Kherson is 100% in Russian hands. Most of Zaporizhzhia oblast is. All of Donbass will be in a couple of months. I understand Kiev is very upset with how quickly and easily Kherson fell to Russians - most Ukrainian troops never put up much of a fight. In case you have not noticed, there is no guerilla war against Russians in Kherson; what does that tell you?
You may think Ukraine is winning, and you would be delusional. Ukraine is slowly being ground to dust.
I don't really care where you live, fellow traveler. I live in Romania. People like you were defending the Soviet Union while millions suffered and died in totalitarian terror. People like you are still defending Moscow while it's attacking its smaller and weaker neighbours. As far as I'm concerned, tankies should all be shipped to Russia so that they can benefit from Russia's warm embrace.
The funny thing is that you suddenly don't care anymore much about the Russian character of Crimea. How we got here is of little interest, of course. With you people the ends always justify the means. However, you want us to focus on Shukhevych while ignoring good ol' Stalin, the man responsible for more Soviet deaths than Hitler. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. If you want to play "scum of the earth" game, you will have to talk about Shukhevych AND good ol' Stalin, Russia's great leader and hero.
Finally, one more point. Ukraine is in dire situation and Russia has a good shot of winning this the old Russian way: dishonorable tactics, extremely high casualties, complete disregard for human life. It doesn't change my mind one bit. I'd rather stand and lose with sinful Ukraine than win with the Russian Federation and its army of murderers, thieves and rapists.
Unlike Western fellow travelers, who live very far away from Moscow's tanks and soldiers, we, in Romania, have real experience in what Russian peace looks like. 200 years of Russian invasions can leave a mark on a nation and I can't act as I don't know what this latest Russian war means.
I cannot believe how many people fell for this russian propaganda! I’m also from from Eastern Europe, and it might be cause of that, that I can see it too - but ever since this war started, I found myself in a very lonely place to be. A lot of my friends, family members even, people online that I shared same views, about everything, cannot see and even want to consider this point of view. They have turned into to the very closed minded and hostile commentators about this particular subject, that they won’t even consider the possibility of this scenario- to not even consider it (??!)- what if it all is Russian propaganda? And even if you don’t want to take into account any of the things you wrote (which I personally agree), but even if you don’t agree with any of this- you people know that a war is a bloody misery, awful and it takes lives, and people die! Can you honestly say that you are ready to look at yourself, sometime in the future-and to know that while the innocent children were being murdered, just like they are in any war, and while all of that was happening- that you blindly denied it, defended it? A child blown into pieces, that had nothing to do with any of this-only for the fact it was born in a wrong place, at a wrong time? A child blown into pieces! What is wrong with you people?! You cannot defend such a thing, you just cannot… it’s so sad to read this kind of stuff - I’m heartbroken and beyond disappointed, and people have lost their goddamn minds! This is something you cannot justify! No child is guilty in any war, and everyone knows that! Yet their death is very certain! People have gone completely mad, some even have children themselves- and they are parroting this bullshit like it’s some kind of righteous truth, and not a russian propaganda! Can you honestly look at yourself in the mirror and lie to yourself forever? Cause that’s what you’re in for… You are gloating over dead children, all of you!
If Russia is so worried about the Nato, why doesn’t it attack US? Why attack a country that cannot defend itself? Why not attack someone of your own size? Why go for a smallest person on a playground? People have lost their minds! Seriously- just fucking stop it, before you go somewhere, where you cannot come back from - it’s a dark place, you’re already at 🙁
What makes you totally blind to the children being blown up by Ukrainian armed forces in Donbass? The Russian population there has been subject to indiscriminate rocket attacks for 8 years.
That’s a quite a mental gymnastics.. as if I said any of that; classic Russian bullshit propaganda- and you know what? I am just going to explain why this is completely made up Russian bullshit talking point, and not even a real question! Where did I, say anything remotely similar to your comment? Ukrainian armed forces, Russian population, 8 years, Donbas, being blind to some children being blown up, and talking only about the other children being blown up? What a bunch of bullshit made up statements - ascribed to my comment - that I just have to address that, you Russian bot
Contrary to your bullshit - my comment is, If anything, completely opposite of what you you are trying to portray I even say to the author: “even if you don’t agree with all of that …”
My main point in this comment, is exactly the following - children are children. There are no Ukrainian children, or Russian children, or American children - children are children! They are especially so, in a time of war! That is my main argument! And even if I have an opinion, for example - who is killing who?
and even if my opinion, turns out to be correct in the end, however since I am not there - I cannot really voice my opinion - and do you know why? It’s precisely because there are dead children in a war - just like in any war, a well established fact is - that innocent children die in war! They get blown into pieces!
Second of all, my comment is about the article, and the people, who are parroting one side of this narrative, and are refusing to even consider the opposite. They usually, well most of them-also reside on the other side of the Ocean, and cannot know what is happening over there - they cannot know that, just like I cannot know that. They can guess, have opinions at best, but they cannot know that. What these people do know, but are apparently choosing to forget - is that war brings casualties like innocent children, and that is a undisputed fact! So if we know all that - should we just go ahead, spewing garbage out of our mouths - cause it’s all garbage, compared to that - or should we just shut the fuck up for a moment, honouring also some real victims of this war? A dead children…
Now I can tell you my opinion on the situation - but it would be my opinion, and I would say that it’s my opinion. I might be wrong, but it’s my opinion. But if you want my opinion, I will gladly tell you my opinion- you just have to ask?
Gummi, thanks for this, even though I’m going to largely disagree. I really wanted to read a deep and thoughtful analysis that goes against my instincts on this, and you helped me see some elements of this differently.
Here’s where I am - from the beginning I’ve felt like those of us that are laypeople in the US can’t possibly understand what is actually going on. There are so many layers of history and culture, along with decades of corruption and geopolitical manipulation. And it’s just so far away from us, so we have little direct understanding.
What I do feel like I understand is this - we’ve had a foreign policy establishment in the US that has been so wrong for so long, they are deeply hard to trust. They haven’t just made little errors - they’ve made gigantic ones. Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Libya, etc all in recent years plus Vietnam and much of Cold War history. That establishment is tied hand in glove to a “permanent war” crowd that wants conflict around the globe. They make gobs of money from it, as well as the usual prestige and human qualities that come from being “in charge.”
In addition, it’s been obvious to anyone with eyes open in recent years that we no longer have anything resembling a trustworthy media. They are bought and paid for ideologically, tribally and monetarily. It’s no coincidence that the major story censored in the last two years is Hunter Biden and the Bidens seedy relationships all over the world, especially in Ukraine. What else is part of that story, that only the spooks know?
So who are we to trust, and what to believe?
I believe Putin is absolutely a bad guy, and wants to restore some of the Russian prestige from the Cold War. I also believe that doesn’t make him insane or completely irrational. Russia has been invaded from the west so many times, to such devastating effect (we Americans can’t possibly imagine) that it’s not crazy to worry about what happens in Ukraine. And, to want to control it. It’s also true that Ukraine itself has been brutalized by the Russians many times in their history. And of course, there’s a long and terrible history of anti-Semitism and pogroms in the region.
At the end of it all, my feeling is we should stay the hell out of it. We’d be wise to keep a very close eye on the situation, and be clear in our minds of what a red line is for the Russians. They certainly don’t respect weakness, and we are weak now with our leadership. But wars escalate very quickly and dangerously, and Ukraine is not worth WWIII. I absolutely do believe some of our leadership class wants it, and thinks they can pull it off without nukes being used. They are utopianists, obviously incompetent and full of American naïveté. And they work for a President that is as unpopular as any we’ve had in decades, who’s party is about to get their ass handed to them in November. Don’t tell me that’s not a factor in what is going on - of course it is.
You have a deep history and knowledge of the region. So that helps you understand a lot, but probably also biases you towards action against the Russians. For me, I just don’t see the American interest in intervening in any way, including all the provocation we’ve been doing so far. There’s so much more for us to lose than gain as a country.
"Russia has been invaded from the west so many times, to such devastating effect (we Americans can’t possibly imagine) that it’s not crazy to worry about what happens in Ukraine."
What you simply do not wish to imagine is the reality of having an imperialist monster right at your doorstep, forever engaging in wars of conquest and plunder, deporting people by the millions, denationalizing them so that they lose their very sense of identity and serve the Russian state and not their own people, throwing people in gulags for speaking their own language or writing in a forbidden alphabet, punishing an entire people for perceived slights or other imaginary crimes, using rape as a weapon against insufficiently servile nations, practicing theft at a national level, using full-state propaganda to crush even the thought of dissent etc. In other words, the reality of Russia.
Someone sold you the lie that Ukraine is near 100% united, and it penetrates your whole narrative.
Ukraine was always very different in its eastern and western parts. Over the past 30 years the country has been moving toward values of the western Ukraine, largely due heavy anti-Russian bias in education. So, if you only talk to people under 30 present on social media sites, who chose to stay in Ukraine, I can see how one can come away with the impression that there's a unanimous opposition to Russia. Tons of people left even before the war. Many are in Russia, but a lot are also in Europe.
But there are still tons of people in eastern Ukraine over the age of 30-40 who are hoping that Russia takes over, tons of people in the Donbass that volunteered to fight since 2014, etc.
During the Euromaidan, the young people in Kiev were overwhelmingly against Yanukovich, but it doesn't make what happened one bit democratic. Whether U.S. helped that particular violent overthrowing of the government is really not that relevant.
Dismissing that NATO is a threat to Russia is also quite a claim. When USA renamed the Department of War to DoD, it did not suddenly became a peace-keeping organization. Just because Russia's nukes are enough of a deterrent today, doesn't mean they will be tomorrow. Russia has a recent painful history of Europeans invading by land. Dismissing it just hurts your own credibility.
I could go on. I think Tucker's take is a lot closer to a well-reasoned position that this post.
Agreed. That was a deep dive into the shallow end of the pool.
Someone sold you the lie that we aren't. My family comes from Donetsk obl., I have many friends and relatives throughout eastern parts of Ukraine, and almost everyone is against russia, especially after Feb 24s. Do you know that almost all Azov members are from eastern parts of the country(especially Mariupol)? How's your propaganda holding?
Tons of people left..and that makes them pro-russia?Lol.
True russian sympathizers/collaborators, that "wait for russia" are a minority, and always was(check Ukrainian independence referendum, 1991 for numbers). And they are definitely not a "ton" in a 44+mln country. Even separatist forces top at 20-30k, but we supposedly had 8mln "oppressed" ethnic russians?
Yeah, we were always too friendly toward russians, I've had many "friends" there, before the invasion in 2014, and that cost us dearly.
>Russia has a recent painful history of Europeans invading by land.
You mean Russia has a recent painful history of invading almost every neighboring country?
I could go on, how your every argument is nonsense, fed by russian propaganda.
My family is from Donbass as well, and my relatives are pretty equally split into pro-/anti-Russian camps. Including those that who have fled to Europe due to the war/ATO/whatever you want to call it in Donbass.
Russia is not a peaceful country, it's a regional empire. So is the USA, just a global one. Both will readily sacrifice their satellites for greater imperial goals. It's pretty sad, but it's the reality. Donbass is probably fucked for decades now. People in Ukraine are now deluding themselves into thinking that the U.S. will be as eager to rebuild what's being destroyed as it is selling/lending Ukraine its weapons. And Russia, were it to prevail, won't have enough resources to do anything quickly either.
I know emotions run high in pro-Western Ukrainians right now, but giving in to emotions precludes any rational actions. At this point it looks like both Russia and United States will happily see years of war that levels 100% of Donbass, just to avoid looking weak themselves. The longer Ukrainians are buying into one-sided arguments the longer it will take them to realize that any shitty peace is better than a complete collapse of the infrastructure that nobody's coming to rebuild.
My condolences for them, truly. It's all around horrible situation that lasted 8 years, instead of simply living peacefully and trying to make life better.
But I can't fathom how anyone could still be pro-russia after all they did, especially now.
Yes, but US never dropped bombs on a theater full of (russian-speaking) Ukrainians, and then lied that they didn't.
So what you suggest, surrender and receive all the glory nkvd-days again? Seen Bucha?
Issues like this is always complex, but the answer is simple. Any concessions to russian will bring even more suffering(and history proves that(many of the same Donetsk family memers died in Holodomor). So we must use any means necessary to repell it fully.
I can. Look at Moldova: occupied by the Russian empire and then by the Soviet state; thousands deported to Siberia, thousands killed, hundreds of thousands of victims of Russification; on top of that, thousands of victims of a Soviet famine. To this day quite a few of them cling to Soviet nostalgia, believe Moldova needs to be a part of Russia's world, follow Russian news and Russian TV stations and - this is the cherry on top - are convinced that they're "Moldovan" i.e. not Romanian, because Romanians are - wait for it - "fascists" and "different". The Russian-Soviet State taught them well. Hell, it even invented a language for them: "Moldovan", a Russified version of Romanian, based on the Cyrillic alphabet.
I know they exist and in numbers(know some personally), just can't understand how anyone could be so retarded.
Brainwashing, friend. A lot of brainwashing from an early age. Most people can't fight it, unfortunately.
Like I said, one cannot expect to make rational decisions high on emotions. I have no clue how the war is gonna evolve, but I think the whole region has been destabilized for decades. Ukraine was a poor country prior to this war, and will be even poorer from now on. I'm trying to get as many of my relatives out of Ukraine as possible. The latter is not possible without at least a cease-fire and a break from 24hr propaganda.
Napoleon, Austria Hungary, The Turks, Germany in WW1, Hitler in WW2, etc. .... the Russians have a long history of being invaded from the West. I woukd cut them a considerable length of slack gor being paranoid.
Ah, yes, those poor Russians, forever suffering under Western threat. No wonder they had to subjugate, deport, kill and denationalize those Eastern Europeans!
That was before they became a nuke power.
Ukraine is no modern democracy that Russian citizens want for themselves. It is correctly perceived in Russia as a cesspit of corruption that makes Russian oligarchs look like angels of mercy. Ukranians themselves are so fed up of it that they want to join the EU because they have no hope on their own politicians.
What sort of civilised country outlaws an entire language? A country in which minorities Russians, Hungarians, etc are treated as second class citizens. Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk had legitimate referenda on independence and deserve the right to be independent of their Ukronationalist tormentors.
"If you ask the Ukranians" is a recurrant echo throughout this article. Maybe you should think a bit more about "If you ask the Russian speakers in Donbass" ... and "if you ask those who celebrate Stepan Bandera and other pro-Nazi untranationalists" ... just saying.
You mean Ukranians are not homogeneous?
I'm a russian speaker, my family and friends from Donbas have a message for you — пошёл нахуй, рашист.
Dude, you're all over the replies cursing at anyone with a different oponion. We get it, not all Russian speaking Ukrainians from east Ukraine are russophiles. But just because you know a lot of russophobes, it doesn't make your anecdotal experience any more valid than the other Ukrainians who also commented.
All one needs to know about this war is to see the "people" in DC who support it. The only people worse than Zelensky and his henchmen are the "people" like Pelosi, Cornyn, Linda Graham, Turtlehead, et al. I didn't think you could be so wrong.
Wow! I’m Ukrainian and that’s such an incredibly one-sided and disgusting work of fiction you just wrote. Unsubscribed and unfollowed you on twitter. I’ll try to come back here later with a more thorough rebuttal when I have the time.
While I share your sentiment on this particular piece, I'd urge you not to unsub/unfollow people at the first hint of disagreement. I do encourage you to come back with a thorough reply instead.
You must be one of those Kremlin Ukrainians. Nice one, comrade.
Yes-yes, Ukrainian, from where exactly? Lakhta-2 center?
Your take, in my opinion, is very one sided and frankly pretty much sums up the Western take with a minor concession or two (which you also walk back). I do have some knowledge on this matter - I was born in Soviet Ukraine, I still hold a Ukrainian citizenship (even though I lived out of Ukraine since the 90s) and still have some family left in Ukraine and visited Ukraine once every few years before C19 hit. I speak Russian natively and understand Ukrainian, and occasionally watch both Russian and Ukrainian news, videos and Telegram channels. Also living in the West for 25+ years I am ver familiar with the Western and Russian narratives.
You general idea is that Ukraine and Ukrainians are united in they fight against the evil Putin horde while on the way to become a Western style democracy. This is simply not true. This conflict, in addition to a fight between Russia and NATO, is also an internal civil war that was ongoing since 2014, not just in Donbass (where a lot of Ukrainian were fighting), but also in all of Ukraine. The Ukrainian nationalist government has been purging Ukraine from anything Russian for 8 years. Russian channels have been banned, teaching in Russian in schools was banned, streets named after Soviet themes were renamed after Ukrainian nationalists (some of them quite vile), people sympathetic to Russia were taken by the SBU and either disappeared or were "re-educated", the Ukrainian military attacked civilians on multiple occasions in Donetsk and Lugansk. So no, Ukraine was not on the path of switching from Mordor to a beautiful functioning democracy. It was on the path of switching from a neutral, maybe somewhat pro Russian, Mordor to a much worse but pro Western Mordor, and the West was willing to ignore the Mordor part, as long as they stay pro Western.
Please try to hear people from the other side. Maybe talk to someone from DNR or LNR. Seriously - you are smart and you can do better. Intellectual honesty, right?
Lmao, what a typical vatnik bullshit. Lives abroad, but tells fairy tales of "evil nazis that oppress poor russians". Almost everything you wrote is lies or misrepresentation of facts.
And yes, my family comes from Donetsk oblast, and my friends who fled their homes in Luhansk and other cities would call you by "unevil, quiet words".
When did I say anything about "evil nazis"?
From what I said, what exactly is the "vatnik bullshit"? You want to tell me people did not end up in trouble with SBU for wrong-think? Or that teaching in Russian was not banned by Ukrainian law? Or the fact that the Ukrainians were shelling civilians which was documented by OSCE is simply false? If you believe this is BS I have a bridge over Severskiy Donets to sell you.
Ah, yes, it was just a fairy tale with:
>nationalist government
We never had anything close to "nationalist government"
>what exactly is the "vatnik bullshit"?
Everything?
>for wrong-think
Collaboration with invading country is not "wrong-think"
> Or that teaching in Russian was not banned by Ukrainian law?
LMAO, there are literally FOUR russian-speaking schools in LVIV right now in 2022
>that the Ukrainians were shelling civilians which was documented by OSCE
Please link to that documents. It would be an interesting read to all here. I personally know how russians took position among civilian buildings and shot from there countless times. Interesting, what could've happen next.
Also interesting why Ukrainian army didn't shell any places under their control, with supposedly the same "oppressed" russian-speakers that was 1 km from other "oppressed" russian-speakers. Strange, isn't it?
All your paper-castles of lies are blown apart with a little wind of truth.
And from a native russian-speaking Ukrainian, a message — пошёл нахуй, рашист.
"Nationalist" is not "nazi". It means "Uber patriotic". Check the dictionary.
Free speech is not "collaboration with invading country". It is free speech. In normal countries saying positive things about your enemy or reading a Telegram channel is still allowed and you don't end up anywhere for a little motivation talk or tied to a lamp post.
As to banning teaching in minority languages even Hungary, an EU state and a NATO member, was complaining about its insanity - https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/ukraine-defends-education-reform-as-hungary-promises-pain-1.3235916
Finally - cursing when you don't like someone's thoughts, especially with "mat" just reflects on you, really. Enjoy your completely democratic and totally free and happy country, buddy. Oh and С днем Победы!
>"Nationalist" is not "nazi". It means "Uber patriotic". Check the dictionary.
Yeah, it's something 99% of russia-supporters don't know or understand.
>Free speech is not "collaboration with invading country".
So in time of literal invasion, you wouldn't check someone who openly supports the invader? Yeah. Were anyone imprisoned for "the memes"?
Marauders were tied to the lamp posts, not " free speechers".
So, silence on russian-speaking schools in Lviv? Shocking
Are there any Ukrainian-speaking schools in Russia? There are millions of Ukrainians living there? Hmmm, does Hungary have such?
So, where are the link to OSCE?
>Finally - cursing when you don't like someone's thoughts, especially with "mat" just reflects on you, really.
Sorry, I have no other words for spreaders of russian propaganda and supporters of genocidal maniacs.
Ewww, you are a commie too.
> Yeah, it's something 99% of russia-supporters don't know or understand.
You said I called the government nazi. I did not.
> So in time of literal invasion, you wouldn't check someone who openly supports the invader? Yeah. Were anyone imprisoned for "the memes"?
What do you mean by "openly supporting"? Saying something positive or following a Telegram channel? Then - yes. Who was imprisoned for "the memes"?
> So, where are the link to OSCE?
https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/2/a/511327.pdf
Here is an infographic of last year's report (no report this years since they withdrew). You can see ceasefire violations on both sides and civilian casualties.
> Ewww, you are a commie too.
How exactly celebrating the fact that the allies won in WW2 make me a commie? Would you prefer that Hitler would have won?
Anyway - this Gish Gallop is getting tiresome. I have no idea if Hungary has Ukrainian schools (although I am pretty sure they are not banning them) but we are really getting off topic. Enjoy your day, and I truly hope the war ends soon.
“I just don’t buy that “NATO is a security threat to Russia” as a serious argument”
Tell me what you think the US response would be to Mexico joining a Chinese led “Pacific Nato “ and China setting up bases in Mexico
Every power has their Red Lines. With the US its pretty much anyplace in the Western Hemisphere. With China it was/is Hong Kong and Taiwan, and with Russia it is its Western borders, especially Ukraine. We would do well to respect these Red Lines even if we do not agree.
After the Cuban Missile Crisis the Soviets pulled their missiles out of Cuba and we did the same in Turkey (reluctantly).
Avoiding war is always a priority, especially between two nuclear powers.
You fail to mention Ukraine not following the Minsk Agreement and Ukraines shelling of the Donbas into civilian areas for 8 years killing many
Crimea has always been considered part of Russia. The Soviets in 1954 decided for some reason to add it to the Soviet Ukraine sphere of influence. Its almost entirely Russian speaking and identifies as Russian and the voted overwhelmingly to leave Ukraine (Ukraine banned Russian language )
While numerically the Nazis are small in number, they are over represented at the level of the security forces leadership. When Hitler took over German the Nazis were a minority politically. Hitler lost the election
The Nationalists and Nazis are also targeting Russian language and ethnic Russians for discrimination.Lawmakers in 2019 passed legislation ordering middle schools that taught in Russian and other minority languages to make the switch to Ukrainian and mandating Ukrainian versions of online stores.
It requires shops, restaurants and the service industry to engage customers in Ukrainian unless clients specifically ask to switch.
Anyone caught violating the new legislation twice within one year could be fined 200 euros ($235), almost half of the average salary in the country.
Imagine fining a Mexican or Chinese shop owner in a Hispanic or Chinese neighborhood for not using English unless his customers specifically request it
A country that was subject to a coup to throw out a Democratically elected President is a phony Democracy. Ukraine went from being the wealthiest among the FSU after the breakup to the poorest. The impoverishment of Ukraine accelerated following the first Color Revolution in 2004 and declined rapidly after the Maidan Coup
As for the biolabs, the labs which Russia has control of were decontaminated in advance of their control. They have released documents that have been ignored by MSM. Its too early to write this off.
Less than one year after President Donald Trump informally announced that the United States would withdraw from the 1987 Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (INF) Treaty, the State Department announced on Aug. 2 2019 that the move was officially complete. I’d call that a provocation
Especially when you are getting ready to deploy this in Europe
https://pete843.substack.com/p/was-dark-eagle-one-factor-in-putins?s=w
As for the history
https://pete843.substack.com/p/the-road-to-war-in-ukraine?s=w
I updated the post Soviet time here
https://pete843.substack.com/p/ukraine-post-cold-war-timeline?s=w
The US has had a long history supporting Nazi elements in Ukraine during the Cold War
https://pete843.substack.com/p/100-year-battle-for-ukraine-and-role?s=w
Wow, so much words. And everything is a lie. As a natively russian-speaking Ukrainian — пошёл нахуй, чмо рашистское!
That horrible language discrimination you describe are approximately the same as Quebec’s French language support laws in Canada. Not civil war material.
Except if you protest about it in Canada you aren't chased into a building which is set of fire. Like in Odessa.
Indeed (regardless of what really happened in that firey building). But if the claim of language discrimination is based not on the language discrimination but one particular protest/riot related to it, well then it's rather a misnomer.
Ignoring the lie about Odesa, they always forget to mention there are four russian-speaking schools in Lviv(!) right now, for example. So much discrimination. How many there are Ukrainian schools in whole of Russia? Yeah, none.
Well, not according to this.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/09/world/canada/quebec-french-language-laws.html
Of course, Canada has gone full Fascist now but aside from trampling on old ladies at least you are not bombing the English speaking population who want o part of your Fascism, at least not yet (just seizing their bank accounts)
"bombing .... who want no part of your Fascism"
Yeah, because all the separatists are doing is "wanting", not actually working with russian equipment and personnel to actually wage local war over the last eight years.
I asked my friend, who is originally from Donetsk, how his family was doing back there. He said it was the same as it has been since 2014-2015. Non-stop aggression by the central Ukranian government and the battalions.
You considered all arguments that supported your bias. You shoot down all others as Putin’s narrative. But Ocam’s razor points to Putin’s narrative as possibly the closest to the truth but you won’t even explore it. Obviously you are blinded by generational trauma. I’ll be back when you tackle another subject that is not so close to your heart that blinds your judgement.
A good thread outlining the atrocities of Ukraine and The West in it's relentless pursuit of endless war.
https://www.farsightprime.com/forums/general/55562-america-s-war-in-ukraine
So if NATO is a purely defensive alliance would it be alright if Russia joined NATO?
The only point of NATO anymore is pushing EU defense budget onto US Taxpayers (and their military-aged sons). No thanks. Get rid of it.
Yes, there are US labs there doing research. It’s part of a larger US program that extends outside of just Ukraine. They are not making bioweapons.
-----------
Are they doing research which could result in bioweapons if they called it something different?
This is exactly like us calling torture 'enhanced interrogation' so we can say we don't torture. But we do.
Love the irony/staggering ignorance of the many who exchanged syringes and masks for Ukrainian flags. 😒
who does the US torture? Serbs? Dual loyalty Jews? Russians? Definitely not psychotic islamists, who are our allies in global terror...
Good post.
Not to justify clear Russian war crimes. I think the left doesn't acknowledge how reasonable Russian initial demands were. The eastern provinces and Crimea are filled with people that don't want to be ruled by the west and were pushed.
I don't think there's any solution other than a Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia style breakup.
All the war crimes in the world don't cover up the solution.
Those areas were also filled with little green men intent on conquest.
The so called little green men were just propaganda. In fact it was Russian speakers from the Ukranian army who defected to LDPR forces, along with their heavy equipment. They routed the Ukie conscripts abd forced Kiev to the negotiating table in Minsk.
I am sorry to say, but I think this post is wrong is many ways.
A couple of points here.
An underlying theme here is that Ukraine is one united country, all working together opposing those evil no-good Russkies. gummibear737 says "I talked to this Ukrainian, I talked to that Ukrainian, etc." I guess these Ukrainians were western-minded (ethnic ?) Ukrainians. This is like asking a white supremacist red-neck "what do you think of the Mexicans?" In fact, Ukraine is a deeply split country. There is a territorial entity called Ukraine, but there is a spectrum of people, the two ends of which don't think they live in the same country. Take the map of Ukraine and draw a line from northwest to southeast. Northwest is ethnic Ukrainian; as you go towards the southwest Ukraine becomes more and more Russian. When you get to southwest (Crimea, Donbass) the people are Russian - they speak Russian and they live in Russian cultural world.
If you asked people in Crimea "what do you think of yourselves? how do you self-identify?" they would say "we are Russian". Not Ukrainian. Not Russian-speaking Ukrainians. Just Russian. If you asked the same in Lvov, they would say "of course Ukrainian". If you asked the people in the middle, they would say "Russian-speaking Ukrainians". Do you see the differences?
South and southeast of Ukraine has never been ethnically Ukrainian. Never ever. I remember reading (a few years ago) an article by a young Ukrainian lady from Lvov who had decided to take a trip to Crimea - first trip in her life (Ukraine is a big country). She was shocked. She was Ukrainian-speaking (nationalist you could say). She was shocked that Crimea was full of these Russkies. hahaha. Her attitude was like "how dear they???? don't they know this is Ukraine???" For her, the people of Crimea were like a bunch of foreigners.
wrt "Ukrainian nationalists (neo-Nazis) are just a tiny minority". Let me just provide this one data point. There is this guy by the name Roman Shukhevych. He was a biggest racist mass killing sociopath in Europe until Hitler came along. Go ahead google him. There is a wikipedia page on him - read it (this page goes easy on him). For extra coverage, check out this Jewish perspective
https://forward.com/news/462916/nazi-collaborator-monuments-in-ukraine/
Roman Shukhevych is scum on Earth.
Now here comes my point. Roman Shukhevych is a national hero of Ukraine. The majority of Ukrainian parliament voted to name him a hero; the president of Ukraine signed the decree declaring him a hero. So don't come telling "Ukrainian nationalists (neo-Nazis) are just a tiny minority"; minority my ass. For Ukraine to declare Roman Shukhevych a hero is like for Germany to declare Adolf Hitler a national hero. Think about that.
You poor fellow, you're still using out-of-date Russian propaganda software. There are so many issues wrong with this ridiculous comment of yours that I don't even know where to begin.
For an example, you mention Crimea and its Russian identity. Crimea used to be Tatar land but in the 19th century Moscow began an intensive Russian colonization program. This was highly accelerated by two Soviet-caused famines which struck the Tartars during the Soviet times (1921 and the Holodomor). Then at the end of WW2 the Soviet Union DEPORTED TATARS, GREEKS, BULGARIANS and many-many others still living in the Crimea and further colonized the lands with RUSSIANS. This was the typical Moscow modus operandi: kill, deport, beat into submission and Russification and then claim that the lands were always Russian to begin with.
As a final note, do you really want to play the "scum of the Earth" game, comrade KK? Really? JOSEF STALIN is the hero of the Russian Federation and his cult has been gaining followers in the the past few decades under the glorious leadership of the KGB asset Putin.
I'm Ukrainian, part of family is from Donbas, relatives are all over East and South and friends are still there. Yeah, all of your post is russian propaganda talk.
And Gummi is 100% on point.
>one united country
We are, how's that russian invasion going? Millions greeting them with flowers? LMAO
>If you asked people in Crimea
Wow, ALL of Crimeans would tell that? Haha, no.
And no shit, russia imported millions of their own people there. Even with this, why more then a half Crimeans voted for Ukrainian independence, mhm? Why 85% of Donbas voted for it?
Cry and lie, only thing you can do.
>South and southeast of Ukraine has never been ethnically Ukrainian
Huge collection of ethnicity maps from as early as 19 century prove you are lying.
>Ukrainian-speaking (nationalist you could say)
Wow, what a scumbag.
>He was a biggest racist mass killing sociopath in Europe until Hitler came along.
LMAO, lies with each breathe.
>For Ukraine to declare Roman Shukhevych a hero is like for Germany to declare Adolf Hitler a national hero. Think about that.
Have you thought once that Ukrainians know better of their own history than russians or their like-minded buffoons?
Vlad M. and Corwin - you are obviously supporters of Ukraine(ian nationalist project). Your response while full of emotional name-calling, does not actually refute any of the facts I provided. I don't live in Russia and I am not Russian. But I know a Nazi when I see a Nazi.
For example, while Josef Stalin is a hero to some Russians, he is not and has never been declared an official hero of Russia. Roman Shukhevych is an official hero of Ukraine. There is a difference. When a person is declared an official hero, it says something about that government and the people - like they respect and honor that hero, like they share his(her) values. You say Roman Shukhevych is a patriot of Ukraine - sure, just like Hitler was a patriot of Germany.
You think you refuted my points, but you never did. I never said that Crimea is not multi-ethnic, or has no multi-ethnic history. Sure it does. Lots of people have lived in Crimea over the centuries. What I said and what you seem to have missed is that Crimea has never been ethnically Ukrainian.
> We are, how's that russian invasion going? Millions greeting them with flowers? LMAO
I am not sure why you are feeling so smug about the Russian invasion (supposed lack of Russian progress). As we speak, the Ukrainian grouping in Donbass is being ground down.
It is slow going (Russians are obviously trying to minimize their losses), but it is steady and unstoppable. Russian troops have plenty of fuel and ammunition; their troops have good mobility. They rotate troops in and out - troops spend couple of weeks on the front lines, then get rotated out to rest and refit, while other troops take their place, etc. This is a sustainable model of running a military campaign. Compare this to the condition of Ukrainian troops in Donbass - they have very little mobility (they hunker down in their defensive positions they have prepared over the last 8 years - this gives them short-term security, but guarantees their intermediate-term destruction); they are running low on ammunition (I have seen Ukrainian commanders complain that Russian troops seem to have endless artillery power - every 300 shells Russians fire, Ukrainians fire 3 shells back. Ukrainians are unable to rest their troops - after a couple of weeks of combat, a unit starts to lose its effectiveness and is much easier to destroy.
If Ukrainians were smart, they would pull back their troops to the Diepr line. Best chance they have is fortify themselves in big cities and make Russian engage in urban fighting. Worst thing is for Ukrainians to fight Russians in the fields and hills on the open country. Which is what they are doing right now.
as to "Millions greeting them with flowers?" - I have seen reports, complaining by Ukrainian commanders that it is more difficult for them to fight Russians, since the local population in Donbass does not really support them. And even more than that, that many locals are actively cooperating with Russian forces. Like - a Ukrainian unit sets up a camouflaged position, and 30 minutes later Russians start raining artillery on them because some local has reported their position to Russians on a Telegram channel. Then the Ukrainian unit quickly changes position, and 30 minutes later Russian shells again start landing on them, because another local has reported they movements and new location to Russians on Telegram.
Kherson is 100% in Russian hands. Most of Zaporizhzhia oblast is. All of Donbass will be in a couple of months. I understand Kiev is very upset with how quickly and easily Kherson fell to Russians - most Ukrainian troops never put up much of a fight. In case you have not noticed, there is no guerilla war against Russians in Kherson; what does that tell you?
You may think Ukraine is winning, and you would be delusional. Ukraine is slowly being ground to dust.
I don't really care where you live, fellow traveler. I live in Romania. People like you were defending the Soviet Union while millions suffered and died in totalitarian terror. People like you are still defending Moscow while it's attacking its smaller and weaker neighbours. As far as I'm concerned, tankies should all be shipped to Russia so that they can benefit from Russia's warm embrace.
The funny thing is that you suddenly don't care anymore much about the Russian character of Crimea. How we got here is of little interest, of course. With you people the ends always justify the means. However, you want us to focus on Shukhevych while ignoring good ol' Stalin, the man responsible for more Soviet deaths than Hitler. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. If you want to play "scum of the earth" game, you will have to talk about Shukhevych AND good ol' Stalin, Russia's great leader and hero.
Finally, one more point. Ukraine is in dire situation and Russia has a good shot of winning this the old Russian way: dishonorable tactics, extremely high casualties, complete disregard for human life. It doesn't change my mind one bit. I'd rather stand and lose with sinful Ukraine than win with the Russian Federation and its army of murderers, thieves and rapists.
Unlike Western fellow travelers, who live very far away from Moscow's tanks and soldiers, we, in Romania, have real experience in what Russian peace looks like. 200 years of Russian invasions can leave a mark on a nation and I can't act as I don't know what this latest Russian war means.
I cannot believe how many people fell for this russian propaganda! I’m also from from Eastern Europe, and it might be cause of that, that I can see it too - but ever since this war started, I found myself in a very lonely place to be. A lot of my friends, family members even, people online that I shared same views, about everything, cannot see and even want to consider this point of view. They have turned into to the very closed minded and hostile commentators about this particular subject, that they won’t even consider the possibility of this scenario- to not even consider it (??!)- what if it all is Russian propaganda? And even if you don’t want to take into account any of the things you wrote (which I personally agree), but even if you don’t agree with any of this- you people know that a war is a bloody misery, awful and it takes lives, and people die! Can you honestly say that you are ready to look at yourself, sometime in the future-and to know that while the innocent children were being murdered, just like they are in any war, and while all of that was happening- that you blindly denied it, defended it? A child blown into pieces, that had nothing to do with any of this-only for the fact it was born in a wrong place, at a wrong time? A child blown into pieces! What is wrong with you people?! You cannot defend such a thing, you just cannot… it’s so sad to read this kind of stuff - I’m heartbroken and beyond disappointed, and people have lost their goddamn minds! This is something you cannot justify! No child is guilty in any war, and everyone knows that! Yet their death is very certain! People have gone completely mad, some even have children themselves- and they are parroting this bullshit like it’s some kind of righteous truth, and not a russian propaganda! Can you honestly look at yourself in the mirror and lie to yourself forever? Cause that’s what you’re in for… You are gloating over dead children, all of you!
If Russia is so worried about the Nato, why doesn’t it attack US? Why attack a country that cannot defend itself? Why not attack someone of your own size? Why go for a smallest person on a playground? People have lost their minds! Seriously- just fucking stop it, before you go somewhere, where you cannot come back from - it’s a dark place, you’re already at 🙁
What makes you totally blind to the children being blown up by Ukrainian armed forces in Donbass? The Russian population there has been subject to indiscriminate rocket attacks for 8 years.
That’s a quite a mental gymnastics.. as if I said any of that; classic Russian bullshit propaganda- and you know what? I am just going to explain why this is completely made up Russian bullshit talking point, and not even a real question! Where did I, say anything remotely similar to your comment? Ukrainian armed forces, Russian population, 8 years, Donbas, being blind to some children being blown up, and talking only about the other children being blown up? What a bunch of bullshit made up statements - ascribed to my comment - that I just have to address that, you Russian bot
Contrary to your bullshit - my comment is, If anything, completely opposite of what you you are trying to portray I even say to the author: “even if you don’t agree with all of that …”
My main point in this comment, is exactly the following - children are children. There are no Ukrainian children, or Russian children, or American children - children are children! They are especially so, in a time of war! That is my main argument! And even if I have an opinion, for example - who is killing who?
and even if my opinion, turns out to be correct in the end, however since I am not there - I cannot really voice my opinion - and do you know why? It’s precisely because there are dead children in a war - just like in any war, a well established fact is - that innocent children die in war! They get blown into pieces!
Second of all, my comment is about the article, and the people, who are parroting one side of this narrative, and are refusing to even consider the opposite. They usually, well most of them-also reside on the other side of the Ocean, and cannot know what is happening over there - they cannot know that, just like I cannot know that. They can guess, have opinions at best, but they cannot know that. What these people do know, but are apparently choosing to forget - is that war brings casualties like innocent children, and that is a undisputed fact! So if we know all that - should we just go ahead, spewing garbage out of our mouths - cause it’s all garbage, compared to that - or should we just shut the fuck up for a moment, honouring also some real victims of this war? A dead children…
Now I can tell you my opinion on the situation - but it would be my opinion, and I would say that it’s my opinion. I might be wrong, but it’s my opinion. But if you want my opinion, I will gladly tell you my opinion- you just have to ask?
Lies.
Gummi, thanks for this, even though I’m going to largely disagree. I really wanted to read a deep and thoughtful analysis that goes against my instincts on this, and you helped me see some elements of this differently.
Here’s where I am - from the beginning I’ve felt like those of us that are laypeople in the US can’t possibly understand what is actually going on. There are so many layers of history and culture, along with decades of corruption and geopolitical manipulation. And it’s just so far away from us, so we have little direct understanding.
What I do feel like I understand is this - we’ve had a foreign policy establishment in the US that has been so wrong for so long, they are deeply hard to trust. They haven’t just made little errors - they’ve made gigantic ones. Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Libya, etc all in recent years plus Vietnam and much of Cold War history. That establishment is tied hand in glove to a “permanent war” crowd that wants conflict around the globe. They make gobs of money from it, as well as the usual prestige and human qualities that come from being “in charge.”
In addition, it’s been obvious to anyone with eyes open in recent years that we no longer have anything resembling a trustworthy media. They are bought and paid for ideologically, tribally and monetarily. It’s no coincidence that the major story censored in the last two years is Hunter Biden and the Bidens seedy relationships all over the world, especially in Ukraine. What else is part of that story, that only the spooks know?
So who are we to trust, and what to believe?
I believe Putin is absolutely a bad guy, and wants to restore some of the Russian prestige from the Cold War. I also believe that doesn’t make him insane or completely irrational. Russia has been invaded from the west so many times, to such devastating effect (we Americans can’t possibly imagine) that it’s not crazy to worry about what happens in Ukraine. And, to want to control it. It’s also true that Ukraine itself has been brutalized by the Russians many times in their history. And of course, there’s a long and terrible history of anti-Semitism and pogroms in the region.
At the end of it all, my feeling is we should stay the hell out of it. We’d be wise to keep a very close eye on the situation, and be clear in our minds of what a red line is for the Russians. They certainly don’t respect weakness, and we are weak now with our leadership. But wars escalate very quickly and dangerously, and Ukraine is not worth WWIII. I absolutely do believe some of our leadership class wants it, and thinks they can pull it off without nukes being used. They are utopianists, obviously incompetent and full of American naïveté. And they work for a President that is as unpopular as any we’ve had in decades, who’s party is about to get their ass handed to them in November. Don’t tell me that’s not a factor in what is going on - of course it is.
You have a deep history and knowledge of the region. So that helps you understand a lot, but probably also biases you towards action against the Russians. For me, I just don’t see the American interest in intervening in any way, including all the provocation we’ve been doing so far. There’s so much more for us to lose than gain as a country.
"Russia has been invaded from the west so many times, to such devastating effect (we Americans can’t possibly imagine) that it’s not crazy to worry about what happens in Ukraine."
What you simply do not wish to imagine is the reality of having an imperialist monster right at your doorstep, forever engaging in wars of conquest and plunder, deporting people by the millions, denationalizing them so that they lose their very sense of identity and serve the Russian state and not their own people, throwing people in gulags for speaking their own language or writing in a forbidden alphabet, punishing an entire people for perceived slights or other imaginary crimes, using rape as a weapon against insufficiently servile nations, practicing theft at a national level, using full-state propaganda to crush even the thought of dissent etc. In other words, the reality of Russia.